x.doublea
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Important Parts of the ServeWhat do you think is the most important component of the serve?
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leftys_rock
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placement most definetely....if u have a slow serve, but its in the very corner of the box, its still pretty hard for the opponent to get right??
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fererrodf
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Definitely placement. Ulitmately it's the variety on the serve. Don't let your opponents get into the groove in returning your serve. Let them guess with various spins, speed and placements.
Of course, that's easier said than done.
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J-man
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placement. it's good to move you oppoent around on the serve alittle. could set up for a good volley or winner
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Agassi2000
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This a no brainer. Placement is always better than speed if you have a decent serve. Sampras's serve was great because he had great placement, not just power.
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leftys_rock
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yeah because if u place it well, it would still be hard for the opponent to get it back anyway....
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x.doublea
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| Agassi2000 wrote: | | This a no brainer. Placement is always better than speed if you have a decent serve. Sampras's serve was great because he had great placement, not just power. |
Sampras's serve was also so great because he basically had the same ball toss on every serve. Even the best returners (Ex. Agassi) had trouble reading it at times.
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beachjm
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I agree with what has already been said. It's all about the placement. You definitely need some pop on the serve but I'd take for example Federer's serve over Roddick's any day of the wk. You can never read Federer's serve because of the similar delivery (similar to Sampras' amazing serve). That's why his serve is so effective and hard to break. He still gets his fair share of aces but he reminds me of a great baseball pitcher who just throws the ball all over the plate (using different placement and spins) to just befuddle opponents.
I wish on the women's tour, some of the players got their serves in more and just didn't try to hammer them in. A lot of them have good 1st serves and atrocious 2nd one's. The difference between the two is sometimes striking.
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leftys_rock
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well people think that roddicks serve is so good because of his power...but if he improves his placement, it could be an extremely dangerous serve....
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dav6789
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Most important part : placement.
If you place the ball well ( as federer does) you can it many aces and get cheap points.
If you power a serve into the returner's hitting zone, it will come back just as fast .
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leftys_rock
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yeah thats why fed gets aces, but doesnt hit the ball as fast as karlovic or roddick...just purely by placement....
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silversurfer
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| beachjm wrote: | I agree with what has already been said. It's all about the placement. You definitely need some pop on the serve but I'd take for example Federer's serve over Roddick's any day of the wk. You can never read Federer's serve because of the similar delivery (similar to Sampras' amazing serve). That's why his serve is so effective and hard to break. He still gets his fair share of aces but he reminds me of a great baseball pitcher who just throws the ball all over the plate (using different placement and spins) to just befuddle opponents.
I wish on the women's tour, some of the players got their serves in more and just didn't try to hammer them in. A lot of them have good 1st serves and atrocious 2nd one's. The difference between the two is sometimes striking. |
yeah i agree. but federer also holds serve most of the time because he's so comfortable with his baseline game that he's so relaxed when he serves because he knows even if the ball comes back he can win the point anyway while roddick exerts too much effort on his serve because when it doesn't get in he can get into trouble against counterpunchers especially on clay. although sometimes this works in his favor, he can swing freely during the rallies because he knows he got his serve to fall back on.
but in the long run it's still placement over power. although power+placement doesn't hurt either. krajicek and ivanisevic won wimbledon because of the combination of the two. and there's sampras and becker.
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x.doublea
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| silversurfer wrote: | | beachjm wrote: | I agree with what has already been said. It's all about the placement. You definitely need some pop on the serve but I'd take for example Federer's serve over Roddick's any day of the wk. You can never read Federer's serve because of the similar delivery (similar to Sampras' amazing serve). That's why his serve is so effective and hard to break. He still gets his fair share of aces but he reminds me of a great baseball pitcher who just throws the ball all over the plate (using different placement and spins) to just befuddle opponents.
I wish on the women's tour, some of the players got their serves in more and just didn't try to hammer them in. A lot of them have good 1st serves and atrocious 2nd one's. The difference between the two is sometimes striking. |
yeah i agree. but federer also holds serve most of the time because he's so comfortable with his baseline game that he's so relaxed when he serves because he knows even if the ball comes back he can win the point anyway while roddick exerts too much effort on his serve because when it doesn't get in he can get into trouble against counterpunchers especially on clay. although sometimes this works in his favor, he can swing freely during the rallies because he knows he got his serve to fall back on.
but in the long run it's still placement over power. although power+placement doesn't hurt either. krajicek and ivanisevic won wimbledon because of the combination of the two. and there's sampras and becker. |
The best servers who don't rely heavily on power (Sampras and Federer) also incorperate the use of disguise into their serves. For example, even though most players can simulate the same ball toss for every serve, there is always something that will tell their opponent where the serve will go. One can't say the same about Sampras's and Federer's serve.
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silversurfer
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i think it was it was at last year's aussie open match between andre and roger federer, fed hit majority of his serves at 128mph in all directions during important moments and it really crushed me that the great andre agassi can do nothing about it. pete's serve had it all- power, placement. spin and disguise and probably his greatest weapon, his confidence on his second serve. he can hit aces on second serves even during tie-breaks. it's the equivalent of the clutch shot in basketball. i'm a great agassi fan but sampras' serve is a sight to behold. federer's serve doesn't come near pete's serve speeds(pete regularly hit 133's and his fastest is 141mph) but gets the job done just as well.
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leftys_rock
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i like fed's placement of the serve....he just has craftiness around all of his shots.....though his serves are nowhere near as fast as roddicks, he can get just as many aces as him....
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x.doublea
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| leftys_rock wrote: | | i like fed's placement of the serve....he just has craftiness around all of his shots.....though his serves are nowhere near as fast as roddicks, he can get just as many aces as him.... |
Roddick's a bit easier to read than Federer's, so really, Roddick neads the power to make it a weapon. If you take away Roddick's pace, you will see a very ordinary serve. If you take away 10 miles off Federer's serve, it will probably still be among the best.
(This is not to mention how much more accurated Federer's serve is than Roddick's).
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leftys_rock
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yes, though roddick has the fastest serve, it is not the best....
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silversurfer
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richard gasquet's serve is an example of placement over power. i think during the us open his fastest serve was only 120mph but his great placement made his serve a lot tougher to break. he beat ljubicic's poweful serve in the 3rd round and then lost to red hot ginepri in thenext round in 5 sets. so i agree with x.doublea that even if fed's serve was reduced by 10mph it will still be tough to break.
yeah roddick relies on power but he can also hit wicked kick serves especially on the second serve. he holds serve 90% of the time and regularly leads the tour in aces so he's definitely a great server although not the greatest. personally i think he's got the best second serve in the atp tour today, karlovic got the best first serve and federer got thebest all-around serve.
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leftys_rock
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yes thats true....venus got broken 8 times yesterday in her loss to tsvetana pironkova......quite an epic match......except venus made 65 unforced errors....
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x.doublea
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| silversurfer wrote: | richard gasquet's serve is an example of placement over power. i think during the us open his fastest serve was only 120mph but his great placement made his serve a lot tougher to break. he beat ljubicic's poweful serve in the 3rd round and then lost to red hot ginepri in thenext round in 5 sets. so i agree with x.doublea that even if fed's serve was reduced by 10mph it will still be tough to break.
yeah roddick relies on power but he can also hit wicked kick serves especially on the second serve. he holds serve 90% of the time and regularly leads the tour in aces so he's definitely a great server although not the greatest. personally i think he's got the best second serve in the atp tour today, karlovic got the best first serve and federer got thebest all-around serve. |
Karlovic is a great server, but his hold game isn't that great because he's in trouble right away if his opponent manages to return the ball. His five-set loss at Wimbledon 2005 was an example of this.
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dav6789
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Thats a very bad stat for Venus. She usually does hit errors, but balances them out well with winners. She did not do that today.
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x.doublea
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Venus hit 32 winners and 65 unforced errors, while Pironkova only hit 16 winners but balanced it evenly with only 22 unforced errors.
The William sisters definitely have issues with unforced errors.
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dav6789
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Yep, thats good play from Pironkova, soaking up the pressure. She thoroughly deserved to win . People may say Venus gave her the match with all the errors, but Pironkova kept her errors low , and her mind focused on the match.
A disappointment for me was Dokic loosing early after having match points, although she said she is satisified with her comeback.
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x.doublea
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Yes, she was probably rattled by the fact that in the second set, she hit a shot that she thought was in (which was clearly out) and ran up to the net to be congratulated by her opponent only to be told that the shot was out.
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dav6789
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Yeah, I hate to see that. Its a such a shame when that happens.
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x.doublea
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She probably didn't see the ball land, because apparently it was clearly out.
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leftys_rock
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yeah i would have been pissed at that too.....its just too bad her game fell apart after that....most of the top women had nice scores....like all of them won by the same score......
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x.doublea
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Yesderday was very interesting. It seemed as if half of the matches were cake walks and the other half were tight matches that stretched to the limit.
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leftys_rock
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yeah, davenport, sharapova, JHH, and petrova all had 6-2, 6-1 wins.....and i wish venus could have made it that score too, but that was an epic first rounder.....and s. williams squeaked by na li....
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x.doublea
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Serena isn't looking confident at all. She better pick it up.
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leftys_rock
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yeah.....shes gonna have a tough one against hantuchova if she doesnt take her game up a step.....that was quite a match against na li.....
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x.doublea
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Yes, and at the moment, Hantuchova is a way better player than Na Li.
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leftys_rock
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bottom half of the womens and top half of the mens are in action today....hingis's serve better not let her down today.....
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Intelligence
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for me its placment, power and spin all of the above
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leftys_rock
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yes but the point of the thread was to see which one would be the most helpful in the serve....i think placement still...cuz if there is power and it lands in the middle of the box, it wont help you....and if there is spin and it lands in the middle of the box, it wont help either.....if there isnt that much power and spin but it lands in the corner of the box, then u could potentially get an ace if ur opponent doesnt go for it...
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x.doublea
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| leftys_rock wrote: | | yes but the point of the thread was to see which one would be the most helpful in the serve....i think placement still...cuz if there is power and it lands in the middle of the box, it wont help you....and if there is spin and it lands in the middle of the box, it wont help either.....if there isnt that much power and spin but it lands in the corner of the box, then u could potentially get an ace if ur opponent doesnt go for it... |
Yes, a powerful serve might be more intimidating than a well-placed serve, but a good placed serve probably will force a weak reply; a powerful serve that is not well aimed might come back even faster....
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leftys_rock
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yeah, if the receiver can point his or her racquet in the right direction....then theyve got an excellent return shot...
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x.doublea
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| leftys_rock wrote: | | yeah, if the receiver can point his or her racquet in the right direction....then theyve got an excellent return shot... |
Yes, Agassi is a great example of this. He returns extremely well against Roddick because he can take advantage of Roddick's slight lack of placement. He returns well against Federer too, but he has more difficulty because Federer often places it out of his reach.
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leftys_rock
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yeah, agassi just has a good return....there are a few good returners on the womens side too....
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x.doublea
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| leftys_rock wrote: | | yeah, agassi just has a good return....there are a few good returners on the womens side too.... |
Yes, Agassi is one of the few good offensive returners; ones that tries to put the pressure right on the opponent. The William Sisters and Davenport are also good offensive returners.
However, Agassi isn't that great of a defensive returner; he doens't really try to get as many balls in play as possible and he get's aced a lot. Nadal and Federer are probably the best defensive returners now. On the women's side, Clijsters would take the honour.
But at the end of the day, I'd rather have a good offensive return than a good defensive one.
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leftys_rock
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yeah....fed hardly ever gets aced....its just how he gets his racquet out and angles the ball....
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x.doublea
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Yes, at Wimbledon 2003 SF, Roddick could only ace Federer three times.
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leftys_rock
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yup even though a-rod has the fastest serve in the world....its just where fed stands and how on balance he is that prevents him from being aced...
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x.doublea
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| leftys_rock wrote: | | yup even though a-rod has the fastest serve in the world....its just where fed stands and how on balance he is that prevents him from being aced... |
Federer actually stands very close to the baseline; he can imitate an Agassi return, except not as consistantly efficient.
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leftys_rock
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yeah....its just his concentration and good hand-eye coordination that allows him to prevent getting aced a lot...
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x.doublea
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| leftys_rock wrote: | | yeah....its just his concentration and good hand-eye coordination that allows him to prevent getting aced a lot... |
...although Agassi is regarded to having the best hand-eye coordination; this allows him to normally stand just behind the baseline. Federer usually stands around 2-6 feet behind the baseline.
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leftys_rock
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yeah, cuz fed has good defense and offence....
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x.doublea
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| leftys_rock wrote: | | yeah, cuz fed has good defense and offence.... |
Yes. Federer's only fault in return of serve is that he devensively chips the backhand return just a tad to much. If he came over the ball more and is more offensive, he would be more successful returning serve.
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leftys_rock
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yeah, but apart from that, it is a pretty darn good return of serve.....
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x.doublea
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| leftys_rock wrote: | | yeah, but apart from that, it is a pretty darn good return of serve..... |
Yes, last year, ownly Nadal, Safin, Gasquet, Nalbandian, and Agassi threatened it.
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leftys_rock
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yeah....does fed stand in the same spot for returning second and first serve?? or does he move up for the second??
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x.doublea
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| leftys_rock wrote: | | yeah....does fed stand in the same spot for returning second and first serve?? or does he move up for the second?? |
To return a second serve, he usually stands around where Agassi stands to receive a first serve against normal players.
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leftys_rock
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oh...yeah i saw the mirnyi match...it was good....i didnt count but how many aces did fed make??
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dav6789
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He served more than Mirnyi , which is a suprise since Mirnyi relies on big serves alot.
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x.doublea
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Federer's backhand was on. He hit winners with it in every way: topspin dippers crosscourt, deep drives down the line, slice lobs just inside the baseline, slice down the line winners with Mirnyi at the net. He hit winners in every form.
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leftys_rock
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yeah did u see that backhand down the line he hit when he was off the court?? that was an awsome shot...
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dav6789
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That win against Mirnyi has sent out a message to Haas. I think Federer will beat him in straight sets, considering the form he is in.
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x.doublea
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You mean the one when he was on the other side of the court, Mirnyi hit a winning volley, Federer ran over on the full run, whiped a backhand down the line just inside the court, and followed it with the loudest COME ON I've ever heard Federer shout! It was beautiful to watch. He's the only player I've seen do that.
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leftys_rock
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yeah that was the point....that was A POINT man!!! fed had the wheels to chase that one down and to rip that backhand down the line....
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dav6789
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He movement and passing shots are sometimes underrated, but he is as quick as anyone . He just dosent usually have to run 
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x.doublea
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His court positioning and reading the play is so good. By the time his opponents hit the shot, he's basically waiting. But when he's out of position and has to run, he can run as fast as anyone.
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leftys_rock
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yeah....cuz his shots are so cleanly hit....his backhand is one of my favorite shots to watch....
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x.doublea
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| leftys_rock wrote: | | yeah....cuz his shots are so cleanly hit....his backhand is one of my favorite shots to watch.... |
Yes, it's the most beautiful along with Henin-Hardenne.
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dav6789
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Yeah, his backhand is very good. Most people talk about his forehand, but his backhand is one of the best aswell ( with Gaudio, Wawrinka, Ljubicic)
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leftys_rock
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yeah thats why i have been learning the one handed backhand because it looks nice...its harder than it looks, but ive got it down....yeah JHH has one of the best one handers in the business......
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dav6789
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Justine.. definetely. I enjoy watching people with good one-handers, but I hate watching people who have rubbish nackhands and just chip like Rusedski.
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leftys_rock
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yeah....are there any leftys with a one handed topper??
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dav6789
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None that are at the top. Feliciano Lopez has a one-hander.
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leftys_rock
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oh....so not many women huh??
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dav6789
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I cant think of any.
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leftys_rock
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yeah....im the only girl i can think of on my team that has a one handed topspin backhand.....
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dav6789
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Not many people use it now.
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leftys_rock
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is it cuz it is harder to learn?? or it takes more to generate power??
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dav6789
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I think it is harder to learn. Also, juniors usually start with 2 hands, and they end up keeping it.
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leftys_rock
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true...i started with two hands.....and then my backhand became my absolute worst shot....i just hated it....and then i asked my coach to teach it to me and now im not afraid to use it....
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dav6789
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I started with 2 hands . I dont like the feeling of 1 hand.
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leftys_rock
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oh my left hand is very strong, so im comfortable using one hand for my backhand....it got strengthened because i was using slice a lot in matches...
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x.doublea
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I use a one-handed backhand simply because it feels way more natural for me than a two-handed. The problem with the one-handed backhand is that it recquires more strength than a two-hander does. However, many people are being forced into using two-handed backhands, which might be a reason why so many people have poor backhands.
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leftys_rock
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yeah....i just feel that a one hander is more natural for me....when i use two hands, it just doesnt feel good for me...i feel restricted when i use two hands....
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x.doublea
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I used to hit a two-handed players, but since I now use a one-handed backhand, I can't hit a two-handed backhand without hurting my left wrist.
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leftys_rock
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oh...i dont use my right hand at all anymore...i just use it for balance and as a block from the sun....
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x.doublea
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Yes....I only use my left hand during a tennis match to toss the ball, take a ball, catch a ball, keep my strokes in balance, and make a little gesture when something goes wrong.... 
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leftys_rock
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yeah...i still use my left hand for fist pumps....lol...but my right hand is used for throwing the ball....in sports, its either my left hand is completely dominant or my right hand is...
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lobsided
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Placement is most important for me, because If I can get my opponent off balance and there return is weak I can end the point rather fast.
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captainwiggly
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Placement is the most important, followed by power. If you have both working for ya you're in good shape mate.
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canadian-southpaw
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It's got to be placement foe me cuz I am a little squirt and I just don't have the power on my serve yet so placement is very importment for my success.
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leftys_rock
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i have power in my serve, but i think placement will help more than power....anybody can just stick their racquet out and hit a powerful serve back, but its still much harder to get a well placed serve...
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x.doublea
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An example of this is Federer vs. Roddick. Whenever they play, Federer always out-aces Roddick because it's easier for him to return Roddick serves that aren't too accurate than Roddick returning Federer serves that land right on the line 80% of the time.
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leftys_rock
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yeah....fed just has to angle his racquet the right way and he can just hit the ball back and start a rally.....
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Jaded
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I voted for placement. If you are playing an Elite player and you are only serving with power and right into the box and not placeing it well I guarentee they will get the ball back. If you are using placement that will mix it up a bit it could even confuse the best of them now and then.
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leftys_rock
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yes.....roger federer shows this very well.....his serve isnt as fast as andys, but he can still get a substancial # of aces....
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Kay-Kay
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Placement is so important on a serve because even if your opponent gets the ball back you will most likely have an easy shot back because your opponent will be off balance from you placing your serve in the right spot and getting them off balance.
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leftys_rock
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yeah, and having good placement can usually cause an error from ur opponent, so u can have a few cheap points....
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Kay-Kay
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I love getting cheap points
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leftys_rock
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yes i know.....thats why theyre called cheap points... 
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Kay-Kay
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I know when I and playing an opponent and they are on a 2nd serve I am mumbling to myself Double Fault, Doult Fault, Double Fault over and over again to myself. Double faults are the easiest of the cheap points you can get.
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leftys_rock
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yes, theyre basically handing u points on a silver platter......
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Kay-Kay
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And when I play I need as many of those as possible.
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leftys_rock
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of course...everybody does....this is why i hate playing pushers....the hardly ever give cheap points.....
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x.doublea
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Yes, and they give you absolutely nothing to work with.
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